[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by Orb

There is little point in championing any product. Best to let people believe the garbage they want to believe unless they want to question it. I have Dinan stage III tune hardware but the tune is gone.

The efficiency number seems to be made up with some very magical formula so I would take it with grain of salt and it is kind of funny no one challenges the basic truth. Even worse, some of the data collected in the forum is just wrong or inconclusive but who cares?

Most of the IC’s are performing fairly well so there all comparable and there all better than the stock core. The Sperco core does have the lowest pressure drop for the highest mass flow rates. When it comes to looking at heat exchangers it is going to be about balance and diminishing returns. Each one of the design is trading something off for something else so it best to look at them from this perspective. The fact that some of these heat exchanger are overlapping the coolant radiator is tragic on this very limited system, so on that point, they get a big fail in my book but it may be okay for someone else.

-All of that 2-3-4 gear data was collected from independant end user datalogs and ambient temps
-all the independant end user data was put into a independant turbo outlet temp/intercooler efficiency physics generator that can be found here:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

-the generator using physics not salesmanship nor marketing techniques used that data for the end efficiency %'s there was no magical formula or pixie dust involved in the end results. speaking of results some Intercooler data doesn't look like the data some intercooler companies released in their sales literature!
-the turbo outlet temps were taken from an actual log and using the end temp,boost level and ambient temps you can find the compressor efficiency at that level which we used as well as each INDEPENDANT logs ambient temp, boost level end ait level at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run.
- as far as your comment on putting some of the intercooler in front of part of the radiator, coolant temps are not and have never been an issue with this car, oil temps were the problem rectified by either the factory oil coolers or aftermarket auxiliaries. Also the helix only covers the bottom 2.5 inches of the rad and we have sold several 100 intercoolers with no actual data or complaints that it has any adverse effect on coolant temps. The Helix Intercoolers have been run in autocross, road course as well as a cannonball run car in the heat of the summer with no adverse effects or complaints! We also aid in pressure drop on both sides of the core with rounded face and charge air bars. In addition to that the Helix has been the only FMIC run at 627whp so there is no question it can flow that cfm airflow.
- as far as the Dinan intercooler it uses a spearco wave fin core which in the Intercooler design industry is basically laughed at as it never panned out as they planned, it has very little ability especially compared to staggered offset or louvered cores to control ait temps or control heatsoak, that type of fin is great for the water side of an air to water Intercooler and nothing else. As far as their duct design they screwed that up too as they only duct about 1/2 the oncoming airflow to the core vs a duct like the ER intercooler which captures all the incoming airflow. The Helix uses all incoming airflow as it seals to the factory cowl!

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Since the Spearco was "significantly" modified by Dinan and rebadged, those tests have no relevance to the Dinan modified Spearco version..

You should know this, by your statement seems you dont....

Edit: BTW, the "orignal" forum thread posted by dzenno DOES NOT STATE "SPEARCO/Code 3/Dinan-Intercooler" as you so craftily put it in your post above. dzenno test was done on the Spearco "unmodifed" version, not the Dinan modifed Spearco as being discussed here. Good try though

I read those forums to....




Much more than that.....See above....

Love to actually see if they really did increase fin density in that core as spearco doesn't offer options in fin density on their wave cores...
OR
is it that spearco fmic never did have .2 psi pressure drop to begin with as their sales literature on their ait and dyno increase surely didn't match up to end user datalogs...

They did some great engineering on that duct too as they only utilize 1/2 the oncoming airflow but what's that matter when the efficiency #'s are so low that most of the heat stays in the charge air.

The biggest shame is the $300 Godspeed copy of the spearco actually performs better, maybe they should weld a duct and spray paint their logo on those! Spearco/turbonetics products in this industry just like Dinan are overpriced and irrelevant as far as performance is concerned when compared to the options to answer the original question on this thread. So prove everyone wrong that the Dinan is at least on par with pretty much every other option, if you want to at least begin to argue your side because I don't see anything about that intercooler that impresses me but hey what do I know I just do this for a living....

[Orb]

Sorry but did not read most of this but looked at the cal. If you are going to compare you need to know a very important thing which is true mass (water + air) so it ends there… nothing to debate. Start taking the next step and look in detail at the combined fluid properties like density and viscosity instead of this simplified view. Do not rely on internet based cal system. I don’t have any favorites here nor do I care, but the facts presented are only worth what they captured which is going to be reasonably sized errors. Not a big deal, just that you need to keep in mind that the data presented is far from conclusive. Each system is going to work optimal at certain conditions better than the others….question is what the goal is.

As for the overlap, it’s is a big fail from my point of view (I am being blunt) and I have hard time seeing any mechanical engineer accepting this as solution. Creating a new problem is just very bad engineering but as longs as one accepts this I guess its okay. You can’t debate that your design does not negatively affect the coolant radiator. Most people can at least see this so it doesn’t need further explanation.
.

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

-All of that 2-3-4 gear data was collected from independant end user datalogs and ambient temps
-all the independant end user data was put into a independant turbo outlet temp/intercooler efficiency physics generator that can be found here:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

-the generator using physics not salesmanship nor marketing techniques used that data for the end efficiency %'s there was no magical formula or pixie dust involved in the end results. speaking of results some Intercooler data doesn't look like the data some intercooler companies released in their sales literature!
-the turbo outlet temps were taken from an actual log and using the end temp,boost level and ambient temps you can find the compressor efficiency at that level which we used as well as each INDEPENDANT logs ambient temp, boost level end ait level at the end of the 2-3-4 gear run.
- as far as your comment on putting some of the intercooler in front of part of the radiator, coolant temps are not and have never been an issue with this car, oil temps were the problem rectified by either the factory oil coolers or aftermarket auxiliaries. Also the helix only covers the bottom 2.5 inches of the rad and we have sold several 100 intercoolers with no actual data or complaints that it has any adverse effect on coolant temps. The Helix Intercoolers have been run in autocross, road course as well as a cannonball run car in the heat of the summer with no adverse effects or complaints! We also aid in pressure drop on both sides of the core with rounded face and charge air bars. In addition to that the Helix has been the only FMIC run at 627whp so there is no question it can flow that cfm airflow.
- as far as the Dinan intercooler it uses a spearco wave fin core which in the Intercooler design industry is basically laughed at as it never panned out as they planned, it has very little ability especially compared to staggered offset or louvered cores to control ait temps or control heatsoak, that type of fin is great for the water side of an air to water Intercooler and nothing else. As far as their duct design they screwed that up too as they only duct about 1/2 the oncoming airflow to the core vs a duct like the ER intercooler which captures all the incoming airflow. The Helix uses all incoming airflow as it seals to the factory cowl!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Skipping the theoretical here is what we know from users so far in real life about these three from this thread, other threads & supplier advertising claims.

Temp
In the same test

Helix rises by 8 degrees
Spearco rises by 25 degrees
Dinan unknown

Pressure drop

Helix .5
Spearco .5
Dinan .7 (their website claim)

IC efficiency

Helix 86%
Spearco 54%
Dinan unknown

I don’t have a dog in this fight yet but right now will most likely buy Helix. Be really nice if someone with a Dinan FMIC ran some logs to see what is really going on with the unit.

Think it would be a good plan to skip the corporate BS & see what is actually happining in the field with the Dinan IC since it seems to be starting with a weak platform.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

is it that spearco fmic never did have .2 psi pressure drop to begin with as their sales literature on their ait and dyno increase surely didn't match up to end user datalogs...

Why not ? I see the Spearco 26 degree rise in temps very consistent with with 0.2 preasure drop per its orignal volume size. I cant believe I am speaking to a Helix rep whom does not have a grasp on the science of intercooler preasure drop < volume < heat exchange

Do you think .2 presure drop is better than .5 or .7 ? It all matters on how much "coefficient" heat transfer you want, and the air volume that is involved. The faster air passes through the less chance it gets to cool down depending on "how the intercooler cores are designed and volume"

There was a reason why Helix settled for the .5 and not .2 pd. Seeing that Helix has a 0.5 pd with a 93% increase volume, which is more than the original Spearco, of course you will perform better.

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

They did some great engineering on that duct too as they only utilize 1/2 the oncoming airflow but what's that matter when the efficiency #'s are so low that most of the heat stays in the charge air.

Your numbers are exaggerating. The pass through airflow on the sides of the ducts do not amount to 1/2 the airflow. Also it would depend on the type of bumper you have. Btw you want some sort of air by pass to add more cooling the engine bay

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

The biggest shame is the $300 Godspeed copy of the spearco actually performs better,....

Nough said....you said it I didnt.

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

So prove everyone wrong that the Dinan is at least on par with pretty much every other option, if you want to at least begin to argue your side because...

Prove what ? I did not come forth bashing any of the products mentioned on this thread. Go back and read page 1. The burden of proof is on the accusator not the accused.

My point was to show why Dinan is not worth it other than price. Not one of those so called haters, could not constructively come up with any evidence so they continued to poke on the price bashing like a damn broken record.

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

....I don't see anything about that intercooler that impresses me but hey what do I know I just do this for a living....

I couldnt expect less from a competitor

[BEAR-AvHistory]

^^^^
I have yet to see you post anything but opinion on the FMIC’s. How much better is the Dinan at reducing the outlet temperature then the other units to justify its higher pricing? I don’t see that the Dinan warranty will do anything for someone who only buys their FMIC so it would have to out perform the other units by a considerable margin to be worth the extra price.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
I have yet to see you post anything but opinion on the FMIC’s. .

Post what when it was already posted ? The various FMIC test were posted, all I did was ellaborate on the Presure Reduction < Volume < Heat Exchange on an FMIC. It just mere choice of what someone or a tuner would recommend.

Again, no where do you see me claim on this thread Dinan FMIC is superior to all those FMICs mentioned. I dont get why you people keep jabing at this.

The point is PROVE to the OP that Dinan is "not worth it" rather that uttering lip service about the price. This has always been the premise of my arguement.

Its very simple, dont understand why its so hard to grasp.

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

How much better is the Dinan at reducing the outlet temperature then the other units to justify its higher pricing? I don’t see that the Dinan warranty will do anything for someone who only buys their FMIC so it would have to out perform the other units by a considerable margin to be worth the extra price.

There are no individual tests of proper authority to compare or confirm. All we have are specs and features and a high price. I can easily ask Dinan for the data sheet on this but again it will be of weight.

Even IF the Dinan FMIC was to perform by a considerable margin, whatever that maybe, do you think those with such conviction in the "cheaper" product are going say the Dinan FMIC is worth it ? Hell no...that would be wishful thinking, it will never happen.


Note: Cheaper Product = a product that is less expensive than the Dinan FMIC which does not denote an inferior quality or make.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

The point is PROVE to the OP that Dinan is "not worth it" rather that uttering lip service about the price. This has always been the premise of my arguement.

Its very simple, dont understand why its so hard to grasp.

There are no individual tests of proper authority to compare or confirm. All we have are specs and features and a high price. I can easily ask Dinan for the data sheet on this but again it will be of weight.

Even IF the Dinan FMIC was to perform by a considerable margin, whatever that maybe, do you think those with such conviction in the "cheaper" product are going say the Dinan FMIC is worth it ? Hell no...that would be wishful thinking, it will never happen.

I cut some of the fluff from the post quote.

I think reasonable PROOF that the Spearco platform Dinan uses is inferior to most of the other units available has been demonstrated.

Dinan does not in its advertising material show specific in & out temperatures just the pressure drop. There must be a reason for this because most are buying a FMIC first for cooling efficiency & second for the least pressure drop not the other way round.

The Helix which I am considering has run over 620whp on the dyno & mega MPH at the airport runs so Helix looks to have struck the right balance between cooling & pressure drop

Because Dinan does not post these numbers all we have are those from Spearco & can only guess what the Dinan customization adds to the unit.

Personally I would buy the most efficient unit I could even if if cost more then the others. So far I have not seen the case made for Dinan where someone would buy it as a standalone unit.

I believe the guys buying the Dinan "system" are a captive audience who are required to use their FMIC as they move up stages to keep the warranty regardless of how it stacks up in open competition.

[RoundelM3]

^Bear - I agree that the people buying the entire Dinan package are a captive audience, but I was able to get Dinan S3 without their oil cooler and FMIC. I'm using an ER Sport OC and an ETS 5" FMIC; however, I am on my last 6 months of CPO at this point and am outside the Dinan warranty time frame. The only good thing the Dinan unit has going for it is the parallel warranty for owners still under factory warranty - and to some extent, the shrouding they use to direct more air into the core. That said, my ETS appears to be more efficient with a slightly smaller (physical dimension) core, due to its bar and plate design. I'd venture to say that I get better performance from my S3 software with the more efficient FMIC, but I'd need to get on a dyno to confirm that.

For those who want to use the Dinan parts but are on a limited budget, you can get them from the "marketplace" on here in used condition (and occasionally, still new-in-box). The caveat is that you have to get them "registered" with Dinan to get the parallel warranty, and that might or might not be a trivial process. If I had a new 335is like BuraQ, I'd probably want to stick with the stuff that won't get me crossways with warranty issues or have me spending half of a weekend putting things back to stock for a dealer visit. Worst case scenario would be encountering some kind of trouble of the tow-in variety with no chance to remove the non-stock parts. Possible? Yes, although not with a high degree of probabilty. Depends on how much of a gambler you are.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Think the plan for tow in would be AAA or the BMW club. Tow it home clean it up & call BMW.

[matreyia]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Post what when it was already posted ? The various FMIC test were posted, all I did was ellaborate on the Presure Reduction < Volume < Heat Exchange on an FMIC. It just mere choice of what someone or a tuner would recommend.

Again, no where do you see me claim on this thread Dinan FMIC is superior to all those FMICs mentioned. I dont get why you people keep jabing at this.

The point is PROVE to the OP that Dinan is "not worth it" rather that uttering lip service about the price. This has always been the premise of my arguement.

Its very simple, dont understand why its so hard to grasp.

There are no individual tests of proper authority to compare or confirm. All we have are specs and features and a high price. I can easily ask Dinan for the data sheet on this but again it will be of weight.

Even IF the Dinan FMIC was to perform by a considerable margin, whatever that maybe, do you think those with such conviction in the "cheaper" product are going say the Dinan FMIC is worth it ? Hell no...that would be wishful thinking, it will never happen.

Note: Cheaper Product = a product that is less expensive than the Dinan FMIC which does not denote an inferior quality or make.

---------

Dude, I was skeptical of Dinan and their seemingly high prices...then I got their S2 update and then the Cold Air Intake for the E93...holy mother of god...they put alot of work into their stuff. And the stuff actually works as they claim...I do feel a noticeable difference, most definitely.

Cheaper competitors...well, they look like the red headed step child standing next to a supermodel if you open your hood next to theirs. There's just no comparison. If you want to approach Dinan looks and function...you'll have to shell out over $3K for the intake alone and absurd over $3.5K for exhaust from Gruppe M or Akropovich...

I'm sold. Matter of fact, just ordered my FMIC from Dinan as they are having a March Sale now.

As the sayings go:

1. You get what you pay for.
2. Cheap at the start will be much more expensive at the end.

Here is a clip of my CAI install...

[Ingeniator]

Wow you grave rob this to pump Dinan tax products that have been proven to leave power on the table on this platform. Line up next to a FBO 335 and you'll see how fast your 10K stg 2 is.

[JAL0988]

Originally Posted by matreyia

---------

Dude, I was skeptical of Dinan and their seemingly high prices...then I got their S2 update and then the Cold Air Intake for the E93...holy mother of god...they put alot of work into their stuff. And the stuff actually works as they claim...I do feel a noticeable difference, most definitely.

Cheaper competitors...well, they look like the red headed step child standing next to a supermodel if you open your hood next to theirs. There's just no comparison. If you want to approach Dinan looks and function...you'll have to shell out over $3K for the intake alone and absurd over $3.5K for exhaust from Gruppe M or Akropovich...

I'm sold. Matter of fact, just ordered my FMIC from Dinan as they are having a March Sale now.

As the sayings go:

1. You get what you pay for.
2. Cheap at the start will be much more expensive at the end.

Here is a clip of my CAI install...

From what I gathered, you paid for the looks and that's fine. However, to get back to the OP's question: No the dinan fmic is not worth the premium price tag.

[Kenu8187]

Their cold air intake and oil cooler are actually quality products worth the price. Rest is overpriced except the exhaust is pretty sweet of you can get it on sale

[KMEninety335]

Originally Posted by matreyia

---------

Dude, I was skeptical of Dinan and their seemingly high prices...then I got their S2 update and then the Cold Air Intake for the E93...holy mother of god...they put alot of work into their stuff. And the stuff actually works as they claim...I do feel a noticeable difference, most definitely.

Cheaper competitors...well, they look like the red headed step child standing next to a supermodel if you open your hood next to theirs. There's just no comparison. If you want to approach Dinan looks and function...you'll have to shell out over $3K for the intake alone and absurd over $3.5K for exhaust from Gruppe M or Akropovich...

I'm sold. Matter of fact, just ordered my FMIC from Dinan as they are having a March Sale now.

As the sayings go:

1. You get what you pay for.
2. Cheap at the start will be much more expensive at the end.

Here is a clip of my CAI install...

Great, their products look all nice and pretty. I highly doubt you see a huge difference from a VRSF/ETS etc. FMIC and a Dinan FMIC. Dinan is great and all but it's not worth the money and other tunes and products yield better results. The intake and oil cooler are their "best" products.

[matreyia]

Originally Posted by JAL0988

From what I gathered, you paid for the looks and that's fine. However, to get back to the OP's question: No the dinan fmic is not worth the premium price tag.

Hehe...I would have to disagree sir. From the increase I experienced, I should have gotten this thing loooong ago.

I just installed the Dinan intercooler myself yesterday...holy mother of god...the car is a beast now. No need for Sport mode anymore unless I have a straight line in the desert.

Say what you want about Dinan, the warranty and the fact that they all work as advertised (in reality, they work better than advertised - in my experience so far) is plenty worth the value in my book.

What would be insane is to spend over $3.5K on a Gruppe M intake or over $4K on an Akropovich Exhaust or over $1K on Akropovich exhaust tips...yeah, suddenly Dinan don't look so overpriced now. And I installed all the units myself, which was insane, but in the end, very rewarding.

VT

[LMB335IS]

"Value" is subjective but as long as you're happy with it, that's all that really matters. But I've probably spent less on ALL my mods put together than your 2 or 3 items, the fitment and reliability is just as good as Dinan, and my dealer isn't mod adverse so no warranty problems. But I do have to settle for a JB4 sticker instead of a Dinan badge.

[bigdaddycane]

Originally Posted by matreyia

Say what you want about Dinan, the warranty and the fact that they all work as advertised (in reality, they work better than advertised - in my experience so far) is plenty worth the value in my book.

And I installed all the units myself, which was insane, but in the end, very rewarding.

VT

When you install the Dinan parts yourself is the warranty truly intact?

secondly, please don't compare a Dinan exhaust system to a Akrapovic system. Even though the Akrapovic is insanely priced at least it's made with quality materials and craftsmanship. The Dinan exhaust looks like a guy at Meinke made it....expensive and looks like sh!t

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Kenu8187

Their cold air intake and oil cooler are actually quality products worth the price. Rest is overpriced except the exhaust is pretty sweet of you can get it on sale

...and they come with a two year warranty. After market oil coolers are definitely someting you want to have warranty on

Originally Posted by KMEninety335

Great, their products look all nice and pretty. I highly doubt you see a huge difference from a VRSF/ETS etc. FMIC and a Dinan FMIC. Dinan is great and all but it's not worth the money and other tunes and products yield better results. The intake and oil cooler are their "best" products.

FYI, I have the Dinan FMIC and I used to race a local and we compared logs. He had the 5" VRSF FMIC and the Dinan FMIC did better in reduced temps at higher loads 5°f - 8°f difference. Your making assumptions without seeing any data.

Originally Posted by bigdaddycane

When you install the Dinan parts yourself is the warranty truly intact?

Nope, no warranty if you DIY. Warranty is only valid if a Dinan authorized dealer does it. It doesnt have to be a BMW authorized dealer. There are indy shops that are Dinan authorized dealers

[BEAR-AvHistory]

FYI, I have the Dinan FMIC and I used to race a local and we compared logs. He had the 5" VRSF FMIC and the Dinan FMIC did better in reduced temps at higher loads 5°f - 8°f difference. Your making assumptions without seeing any data.

The most expensive FMIC is 5-8 degrees better than the least expensive at about $75 per degree & you believe that's a good deal?

What about all the FMIC's in-between some of which will have better cores than either?

[bigdaddycane]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

The most expensive FMIC is 5-8 degrees better than the least expensive at about $75 per degree & you believe that's a good deal?

What about all the FMIC's in-between some of which will have better cores than either?

For most of us any of the good FMICs (ER, CPe, ETS, VRSF, etc) will work fine and help with heat soak issues. Yes, dollar per degree is relative for 95% of the folks out there.

For those racing their cars often and looking to wring out the most power and efficiency, the Helix and COBB stepped cores are the way to go. Both have an efficient design and are proven, but most importantly cost HALF of what the Dinan, stepped-core copy does.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

The most expensive FMIC is 5-8 degrees better than the least expensive at about $75 per degree & you believe that's a good deal?

What about all the FMIC's in-between some of which will have better cores than either?

I addressed the misleading statement, how you wish to view it to justify your own means is your own choice.

Btw, how a car is tuned can also affect IAT's . I am running significantly more power than I was with RENNtech and I have significant lower IATs now.