[BmwFanFL]

If valid, This might get the flash tuners into the logic. The change to this logging could be trivial to cap the value or ignore higher values. Of Course, finding the code could be tricky and would never be 100% certain without insider assurance.

[Clap135]

You guys are freaking out over nothing. There is no such thing as unflashable portions of ecus, think of odometer readings being altered by so many people, this info gets stored in the ecu, tranny ecu, headlights, u name it. It can also all be erased. So if this infact is a problem, there is no such thing as no solution.

[boom]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You guys are freaking out over nothing. There is no such thing as unflashable portions of ecus, think of odometer readings being altered by so many people, this info gets stored in the ecu, tranny ecu, headlights, u name it. It can also all be erased. So if this infact is a problem, there is no such thing as no solution.

1

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You guys are freaking out over nothing. There is no such thing as unflashable portions of ecus, think of odometer readings being altered by so many people, this info gets stored in the ecu, tranny ecu, headlights, u name it. It can also all be erased. So if this infact is a problem, there is no such thing as no solution.

Not all memory can be erased with a "flash" or without physical intervention. You would have to literally solder out the memory chips or "JTAG" into the PROM. I don't think the information presented here is illogical at all, makes perfect sense.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You guys are freaking out over nothing. There is no such thing as unflashable portions of ecus, think of odometer readings being altered by so many people, this info gets stored in the ecu, tranny ecu, headlights, u name it. It can also all be erased. So if this infact is a problem, there is no such thing as no solution.

if you say so, but please dont turn around and say no one warned you.
not hype -- just fact

just a side note:

can you access the portion of the DME that contains the vehicle identifier and wipe the DWA data that is noneraseable?

[BmwFanFL]

Unless the maximums are stored in a specialized circuit, it could be cleared. It may not be easy, but the ecu could do it. Mileage Or serial numbers might deserve custom write only semantics, but not likely secret max values.

If you find where this max value is updated, a flash or other interface could reset it.

IMHO.

[Clap135]

There are many things, mostly illegal that can be done by flashing, trust me, it can be done and no trace of it would be found.

Think about this logically, if the dme records say max revs, how does it actually record this and updates this? What makes you think you cant change this?

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by BzzzBom

IMO the quality of any tune, flash or piggyback, is inversely proportional to the number of vendor posts that justify their own tune or criticize the competition.

+1.

[shifterboy45]

very true,

you are dealing with a multipart issue here...

youve erased it, but does the information get tagged, routed and stored?

just like forensics on a disc drive -- you can run a govt approved wipe program and i can still pull stuff off it with graverobber.

a lot folks, nefarious or not, some time have bad intentions -- these bad intention are part and parcel to the automotive industry.. thinking you can get away with it also becomes part and parcel ... its just the way things are.

the question, unless you are willing to forward a technical answer will stand... not for your reply, but the vendor i addressed it to ...

cheers!

[boom]

Fine. So max revs can be recorded. Does that mean that the max value is recorded and changes when a new max is achieved? Then it can/probably is rewritten.

Max boost? Peg your map sensor testing for leaks at 20 psi. So what.

Max load: determined by gear, rpm, boost, temp, etc. All change all of the time.

I don't believe any values are stored that can't be erased.

[Clap135]

If the ecu records g's like shiv suggests it does, then everyone is screwed. Either way I am not worried about this.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by boom

Fine. So max revs can be recorded. Does that mean that the max value is recorded and changes when a new max is achieved? Then it can/probably is rewritten.

Max boost? Peg your map sensor testing for leaks at 20 psi. So what.

Max load: determined by gear, rpm, boost, temp, etc. All change all of the time.

I don't believe any values are stored that can't be erased.

The engine load data channel calculates air mass through each engine event. So it would make sense that the engine must be running for this value to update. And while max load is determined by operation conditions, it will never go beyond a certain value when running a stock tune. If FASTA data records a peak value that is beyond this threshold, it can be determined that the car was running non-factory DME calibrations.

I understand wanting to believe something. I just don't understand being illogical about it.

Originally Posted by Clap135

If the ecu records g's like shiv suggests it does, then everyone is screwed. Either way I am not worried about this.

One of my good friends does accident reconstruction for a living. He gets hired by defendants/prosecutors to interrogate "black box" data in order to see what the car was doing just prior to the offense/accident. Just about every modern vehicle stores this data as it has saved manufacturers lots of money when it comes to defending against false accusations of "unintended acceleration" or "ABS failure". This probably should not be confused with FASTA data which has a different purpose altogether.

[Clap135]

These max recording, to my understanding are not stored forever. Just like the codes thrown, are not stored forever but purged. Any info on this?

[BmwFanFL]

Shiv,

What is illogical about thinking it could potentially be cleared? No one has said it certainly can. If someone reverse engineers enough to say how, where, when it's stored and what prevents a new, lower value from being written, then maybe this will look more resilient over time.

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by BmwFanny

Shiv,

What is illogical about thinking it could potentially be cleared? No one has said it certainly can. If someone reverse engineers enough to say how, where, when it's stored and what prevents a new, lower value from being written, then maybe this will look more resilient over time.

Shiv has already found a way to live with it; his tune essentially flushes out the memory with benign codes rather than directly erase it.

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I think the problem is that many people don't understand the technology.

I honestly believe you're a lot smarter than me when it comes to piggybacks, but I'm less sure when in comes to memory permissions. If the data can be written, odds are, with the right permissions, it can be read, and then again, re-written. No doubt it's protected, but flash tuners have proven they are up to the task of hacking the easily accessible areas and with more time the rest of the ecu. Rob said as much in a post last week, so I guess we will have to wait and see if he delivers.

[Clap135]

I jsut find it wierd how the people claiming this, have no proof of this, and have something to gain from spreading the info. It seems like no one knows if it exsists, if it can be cleared, or if it clears it self. How often it updates, how long it holds the data for, when it actually stores the info, ect.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by SennaZ

I honestly believe you're a lot smarter than me when it comes to piggybacks, but I'm less sure when in comes to memory permissions. If the data can be written, odds are, with the right permissions, it can be read, and then again, re-written. No doubt it's protected, but flash tuners have proven they are up to the task of hacking the easily accessible areas and with more time the rest of the ecu. Rob said as much in a post last week, so I guess we will have to wait and see if he delivers.

+1 goes back to my pervious post where I stated it, if something can be written/recorded, it can be rewritten/rerecorded. If that is true, then it can rewritten/cleared with whatever you want.

[Rob@Cobb]

Hey Everyone,

There are thresholds when passed that cause the DME to record what is happening in the case of failures such as an over rev of the motor. That means going past what the ECU is expecting. As long as you set what the motor is expecting, no problem.

The FASTA that was spoke of records how the car is being driven, such as how hard it's driven, they don't actually record any of the data as it's in percentages. 100% load is 100% load to the ECU whether it be 100 or 200 or 500. I have their memory location sitting on my monitor right now.

In the end when you add power to a car, you are taking past manufacture specs. Things can happen no matter the method of adding the power.

I'm about to hop on another plane, so I may not be able to respond till later tomorrow. I hope this helped.

Cheers,
Rob

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

These max recording, to my understanding are not stored forever. Just like the codes thrown, are not stored forever but purged. Any info on this?

The codes are purged with new codes in a First-in First-out method. So if the memory location is designed to store 12 codes, you would have to trigger 12 new codes to displace the old 12 codes. The first code recorded would be the first code to be dumped out of the system.

In the case of max values, it would make sense that they are only purged when a newer, higher value is read. In the case of modern Porsche DME's, it actually records how many times the engine has exceeded 6 different RPM ranges:

Range 1: 7300-7500 RPM
Range 2: 7500-7700 RPM
Range 3: 7700-7900 RPM
Range 4: 7900-8400 RPM
Range 5: 8400-9500 RPM
Range 6: 9500-11000 RPM

This diagnostic is used by used car buyers to determine how hard the car has been driven and if/how badly the car has been over-reved by the previous owner. It's also used by dealership when they purchase used cars and if they are eligible for certified pre-owned status. I suspect the same level of diagnostics exists within the BMW diagnostics since they seem to be considerably more advanced in that department.

shiv

[Clap135]

yea that works for rpms, what about other things that cobb states are read in percentages form 0-100, they claim to change the value of 100 percent, the actual number the ecu never records.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Rob@Cobb

Hey Everyone,

There are thresholds when passed that cause the DME to record what is happening in the case of failures such as an over rev of the motor. That means going past what the ECU is expecting. As long as you set what the motor is expecting, no problem.

The FASTA that was spoke of records how the car is being driven, such as how hard it's driven, they don't actually record any of the data as it's in percentages. 100% load is 100% load to the ECU whether it be 100 or 200 or 500. I have their memory location sitting on my monitor right now.

In the end when you add power to a car, you are taking past manufacture specs. Things can happen no matter the method of adding the power.

I'm about to hop on another plane, so I may not be able to respond till later tomorrow. I hope this helped.

Cheers,
Rob

That's the type of information I was looking for... details!

Thanks Rob